{"id":40693,"date":"2026-09-21T15:00:00","date_gmt":"2026-09-21T21:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/encartes.mx\/?p=40693"},"modified":"2026-09-21T14:02:56","modified_gmt":"2026-09-21T20:02:56","slug":"delatorre-entrevista-fernando-gonzalez-divan","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/encartes.mx\/en\/delatorre-entrevista-fernando-gonzalez-divan\/","title":{"rendered":"From the Couch to the Confessional: An Interview with Fernando M. Gonz\u00e1lez"},"content":{"rendered":"<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Interview with Fernando M. Gonz\u00e1lez | From the Couch to the Confessional.\" width=\"580\" height=\"326\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/yh9S42Ujfps?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-drop-cap abstract\">The interview with Fernando M. Gonz\u00e1lez is the result of an ever-present yet never fully realized dialogue between a psychoanalyst and a priest-anthropologist. It began many years ago when Enrique Marroqu\u00edn, a priest, theologian, and anthropologist, had a conversation with the psychoanalyst, historian, and sociologist during a conference held in Cuernavaca, Morelos, in the 1990s. Over a few beers, Enrique Marroqu\u00edn told Fernando how interesting it would be to write an article based on his experience as a confessor in two communities as distant as they are different. He was referring to an indigenous community in Oaxaca and to the parishioners of the church located directly across from Plaza del Sol, a shopping center situated in an upper-middle-class residential neighborhood in the city of Guadalajara.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Enrique talked to Fernando about the contrasts in the perception of what was considered a sin, since there were many differences in what needed to be confessed to a priest in different places; but also in the idea of sinning or not sinning between men and women. That informal conversation led to the idea that Enrique might publish an article on the subject, provided that the same ethical rules governing the production and dissemination of academic work\u2014namely, anonymity\u2014were followed. Fernando, who was already a member of the Institute for Social Research at the National Autonomous University of Mexico (<span class=\"small-caps\">(iis-unam)<\/span>, recommended that he submit it to that institution's academic journal and have it reviewed in advance, and offered to act as a mediator.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Enrique took on the task and applied what he had learned as an anthropologist to his experience as a priest and confessor to construct narratives of communion based on case studies of interest due to their comparative value in terms of cultural representations shaped by different ethnic, economic, cultural, generational, and gender conditions. The article was written and submitted to the <em>Mexican Journal of Sociology<\/em>, but it was rejected by the editorial board on the grounds that they considered it unethical to publish material derived from the confessional. Unfortunately, we cannot access the article because no one has a copy of it; however, we can draw on our memories to reconstruct its heuristic value and reflect both on the case itself and on the intricate relationships of knowledge differentiation within the academic field.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It is easy to imagine the dilemma posed by these hybrids, especially in academic societies such as those in Mexico that operate within secular contexts, where \u201cthe religious\u201d is considered \u201csuspicious\u201d or, at the very least, frivolous in the face of the demands of scientific rigor. But, moreover, it was an article whose intersectionality produced an \u201cin-between\u201d work\u2014that is, a hybrid work\u2014that was difficult to classify and, therefore, to assess and evaluate. Returning to Homi Bhabha, I believe that reconstructing in this interview the article that was never published is an exercise in thinking about the boundary between religious and academic culture as a problem of articulating difference.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The concept of cultural difference focuses on the problem of the ambivalence of cultural authority: the attempt to dominate in the name of a cultural supremacy that is produced in and of itself only at the moment of differentiation, and the very authority of culture as knowledge of referential truth is at stake in the concept and at the moment of enunciation (Bhabha, 2002: 35).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The article that was never published, but sparked an interesting conversation<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"abstract\">In 2025, a group of scholars from Guadalajara came together to organize a colloquium focused on the academic and theological contributions found in the work and career of Enrique Marroqu\u00edn Zaleta, which we titled \u201cIntersections in the Work of Enrique Marroqu\u00edn.\u201d.<a class=\"anota\" id=\"anota1\" data-footnote=\"1\">1<\/a> For this event, various scholars were invited to reflect aloud on the challenge of intersections in their work\u2014both in the convergence of different academic fields (such as the philosophy of science, psychology, ethnography, history, education, and sociology\u2014as well as at the crossroads between knowing and believing, the intersections between culturally distant worlds, and the comparison between specialized activities\u2014such as psychoanalytic therapy and the act of confession. It is within this last point of convergence that the interview with Fernando Gonz\u00e1lez, which we are publishing in this issue of the journal, took on its full meaning <em>Encartes<\/em>. Since he was unfortunately unable to attend the event, a session was held in which the video recording of the interview with Fernando Gonz\u00e1lez was shown, and afterward, Enrique Marroqu\u00edn (who did attend) continued the discussion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To understand the significance of this dialogue, we must introduce both of them. Fernando Gonz\u00e1lez is a psychoanalyst and historian of religious institutions; he earned his doctorate in institutional analysis under the supervision of Professor Ren\u00e9 Loureau at the University of Paris. He is currently a tenured researcher at the <span class=\"small-caps\">iis-unam <\/span>and a member emeritus of the National System of Researchers (Secretariat of Science, Humanities, Technology, and Innovation, Secihti). He is the author of several books that, throughout his academic career, have exposed silences shielded by the Catholic institution and have touched on sensitive topics\u2014including those considered taboo. Some of his book titles are as follows:&nbsp;<em>Una historia sencilla<\/em>: <em>the accidental death of a cardinal<\/em>&nbsp;(1996), which deals with the murder of Cardinal Juan Jes\u00fas Posadas, Archbishop of Guadalajara, in which the Church was implicated in drug trafficking. <em>De matar y morir por Cristo Rey<\/em>&nbsp;(2001), a work that demystifies the memory of the Cristeros as victims of history by revealing the other side of martyrdom: the willingness to kill. <em>Marcial Maciel. The Legionaries of Christ: Testimonies and Unpublished Documents<\/em>&nbsp;(2006). This book was a watershed work that analyzes Father Maciel\u2019s criminal profile based on the testimonies of those who suffered sexual abuse at the hands of their spiritual guide. <em>The Church of Silence: Of Martyrs and Pedophiles<\/em>&nbsp;(2009), a book that brings to light Vatican files on Father Maciel\u2019s child sexual abuse case and reveals the Church\u2019s complicity in protecting him for several decades. In <em>Crisis of Faith: Psychoanalysis at the Monastery of Santa Mar\u00eda de la Resurrecci\u00f3n, 1961\u20131968 <\/em>(2011), Gonz\u00e1lez presents a fascinating case in which the psychoanalysis promoted by Ivan Illich throws a religious congregation into crisis. Finally, <em>Cuando un futuro se disuelve: de identidades trastocadas y radicalizaciones no previstas<\/em> (Mexico: <span class=\"small-caps\">iis-unam<\/span>, (, 2023) is a book that explores the secret movements of Christian radicalism and their alliance with the guerrilla groups of the 1970s. In short, Fernando is a sharp-minded scholar who seeks to give voice to history through controversial topics or, as he has put it, \u201cthinking where it hurts.\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For his part, Enrique Marroqu\u00edn is a member of the Claretian Order who, theologically speaking, pushed the boundaries of missionary work. One of his most famous books\u2014which has even become a cult classic\u2014is <em>Counterculture as a Form of Protest<\/em>, in which the Claretian's Christian mission led to his involvement with countercultural movements such as the Mexican hippie movement, which he referred to as <em>jipiteca <\/em>to distinguish them from American hippies, emphasizing that the <em>jipitecas<\/em> were a cultural hybrid that sought to find meaning in indigenous traditions<em>. <\/em>The <em>rock<\/em>, transcendental meditation, and the ingestion of power plants were not at odds with the mystical experience he promoted. Encouraged by the changes brought about by the Second Vatican Council <span class=\"small-caps\">ii<\/span>, Enrique associated with countercultural intellectuals and artists in Mexico. He incorporated the <em>rock<\/em> to the Eucharist, and his sermons blended Christian messages with themes typical of the counterculture.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beginning in the early 1970s, Enrique became involved in the liberation theology movement, working closely with grassroots communities in neighborhoods and towns throughout the state of Puebla. He also wrote books in which the theme of inculturation is central, such as <em>The Messianic Cross: Perspectives on Syncretism in Oaxaca<\/em> (1986) and others, in which he explored the theological implications by advocating for the social construction of a world grounded in values, as stated in<em> Another World Is Possible: Justice, Peace, and Integrity of Creation and Consecrated Life <\/em>(2006)<em>. <\/em>Enrique was also a pioneer in blurring the boundaries between humanistic and theological scientific knowledge. Although he was an ordained priest, his practice combined that of a religious leader with that of an anthropologist. In 1980, he studied anthropology at the Benem\u00e9rita Universidad Aut\u00f3noma de Puebla (<span class=\"small-caps\">buap<\/span>) and later earned his Ph.D. from the Universidad Aut\u00f3noma Metropolitana (<span class=\"small-caps\">uam<\/span>)-Xochimilco. On the one hand, academia demanded a kind of cognitive puritanism in which professors urged objectivity as knowledge stripped of beliefs. At that time, religion was viewed as an ideology, and the expectation was that field research and its analysis should not be influenced by beliefs. Her doctoral dissertation addressed the topic of <em>The Religious Conflict in Oaxaca, 1976\u20131992, <\/em>a pioneering and unique study in the field of the anthropology of religion in Mexico.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Questions that Guided the Dialogue: Moral Crossroads Between Academia and Religion<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"abstract\">Before beginning with the questions, I invited both of them to reflect on the ethical dilemmas involved in publishing the results of clinical case studies in psychoanalysis and the confessions made within a place of worship. Although both respected the ethical principle of protecting the informants\u201c identities by publishing under the guise of anonymity, that aspect was not the only ethical issue that clouded or called into question what was publishable. The article was rejected on the grounds of unethical conduct, since the cases stemmed from the act of confession, even though many journals publish psychoanalytic articles whose cases were conducted in therapeutic contexts and are not the result of academic interviews. For this reason, I found it interesting to reflect on what makes the former considered invalid in the \u201dacademic\u201d world, while the latter is not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I believe that what happened with this unpublished article presents an opportunity to spark reflection in the field of the social sciences and the reasons (representations or <em>habitus,<\/em> (as Pierre Bourdieu would say) that lead an academic journal to reject one paper and accept others. I asked whether a Jacobinist mindset still influences the field or, on the contrary, a Catholic conception of the secrecy of confession that extends into academia, leading it to be viewed as an unethical matter. The first part of the interview focused on the dilemmas surrounding the rejection of the text for publication, recalling the arguments that led to the decision not to publish it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The interview revisits several questions that I found key to understanding the tensions arising from the intersection of a little-studied and undervalued subject, such as sin and confession, in an attempt to explore\u2014beyond the mere anecdote, which is interesting in and of itself\u2014the structural tensions between these fields. Why was the decision made not to publish material from the religious field in an academic journal? Why is sin almost never considered a subject of study? Why might it be dismissed?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I wish to highlight the importance of critically and comparatively studying the socially situated content of narratives of sin, as this could lead to de-universalizing it by introducing recognition and situational analysis of the heterogeneous conceptions of sin across different cultures. Furthermore, this article could deconstruct sin as a totalizing concept by highlighting gradations of sinfulness, since some sins carry greater weight than others: some deserve punishment and others do not; some deserve to be confessed and others do not. What are the tensions that arise between the morality of sin and the morality of crime, which are not always synonymous and may even involve points of tension or conflict?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>These reflections and the questions designed to spark dialogue were sent in advance to both Fernando Gonz\u00e1lez and Enrique Marroqu\u00edn. I contacted Fernando, and we met to record the interview in a room at the <span class=\"small-caps\">ciesas<\/span> Occidente. During an informal conversation, the interview took its course. It began with a review of the article\u2019s main points, attempting to reconstruct the meeting between Enrique Marroqu\u00edn and Fernando, the content and significance of the written article, and the process leading to its rejection by the publisher. One of the topics addressed was the concept of \u201csin,\u201d in which Fernando explains how Marroqu\u00edn\u2019s article relativized the universality of sin by focusing on its social conception, which is represented in different ways depending on gender, ethnicity, social class, and age. The political economy of sin is a very important issue that has received little attention. The discussion also touched on the contrasts between confession and psychoanalytic therapy, addressing the differences in space (confessional\/couch) and bodily postures within these spaces (kneeling\/reclining).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For his part, Enrique Marroqu\u00edn emailed me a text containing his reflections on the article that was never published and on the moral dilemmas inherent in the dialogue between a psychoanalyst and a confessor. The author read this text aloud during the event. I will return to this point <span class=\"small-caps\">iii:<\/span> \u201cMy Confessions in Morelia\u201d\u2014and I\u2019ll quote just one excerpt from it to situate the interview within this exchange of ideas:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"verse\">Based on a misunderstanding of \u201ccultural relativism,\u201d,<a class=\"anota\" id=\"anota2\" data-footnote=\"2\">2<\/a> And because they refuse to accept that the Catholic Church should claim the right to decide on the morality of society as a whole, social researchers have paid little attention to moral culture. But because they are unaware of the actual moral practices in the very places they seek to influence, many cultural attitudes and behaviors escape their notice.<a class=\"anota\" id=\"anota3\" data-footnote=\"3\">3<\/a> Morality is intertwined with other disciplines, such as philosophical ethics, psychoanalysis (guilt), moral theology, and comparative religion. In Mexico and other countries with Christian majorities, the morality that is publicly espoused is usually the one preached by the churches.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Due to space constraints, I will summarize some of the ideas presented in his text, since it is more than ten pages long. I will focus on the section in which Enrique discusses the story of the unpublished article and the comparison between a confessor and a psychoanalyst.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>At the beginning of the text, he explains that the idea for a dialogue with his friend and colleague Fernando Gonz\u00e1lez arose a few years ago. He recalls that at that time, Enrique had conducted three sociometric samples of his confessions: one in the city of Oaxaca, another in a town in that state, and the last in Guadalajara. He shared his work with Fernando, who suggested establishing a dialogue between a psychoanalyst and a confessor. The idea they both agreed on was to start with the scenographic elements themselves: the couch and the old confessional. According to Enrique, they wrote the article together and submitted it to the <em>Mexican Journal of Sociology, <\/em>which did not publish it, claiming that the topic was not within the scope of sociology and arguing that it would be better for that priest to focus on hearing confessions rather than playing the sociologist. Enrique regrets that they can no longer retrieve the article because it was lost, but he offers to try again by analyzing a sample of confessions from the parish in Morelia, where he currently serves as a priest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The text draws a comparison between confessors and psychoanalysts. It states that confessors are priests and that \u201cthey do not like to hear confessions,\u201d especially when they are young priests. It describes how the Church currently lacks confessors and that in most situations \u201cconfession in our parishes is unpleasant and tedious; there is a long line of penitents waiting, not even allowing the confessor to stand up.\u201d In contrast, the author notes that \u201cthe psychoanalyst charges high fees and is sought after by the wealthy\u201d and remarks that he does not know how experiences of group psychoanalysis are evaluated. He points out that \u201cthe confessor has to be a bit of a therapist, theologian, ethical philosopher, and companion\u201d; he adds that he must also be resilient, since \u201che must know how to listen and give the penitent <em>the weather <\/em>\u201dwhat I really need,\u201c unlike the psychoanalyst, who \u201dhas sessions that are scheduled, timed, and billed.\".<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He acknowledges that \u201cthe confessor is poorly prepared,\u201d because seminaries do not typically provide students with adequate training in this practice. He recalls that things used to be different, as priests would hear a \u201cmoral case\u201d in their communities once a month, which they would act out using fictional characters and then discuss as a group to determine the moral judgment and the confessor\u2019s appropriate response. He regrets that this practice has fallen into disuse, partly due to the lack of vocations. On the other hand, he believes that, today, psychoanalysis is a formally recognized field of study in both academic and clinical settings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In the text, Enrique included a new exercise for studying representations of sin; however, due to space constraints and authorship considerations, I will simply mention that I hope the reflective exercise\u2014which allows for the creation of a comparative catalog of what parishioners in a parish located in a middle-class neighborhood in Morelia typically confess (it is assumed that one should confess what is considered a grave sin) will be published soon; but I also hope that the topic of those sins that are ignored in certain groups and social sectors will be addressed. The comparison shows that the various <em>habitus<\/em><a class=\"anota\" id=\"anota4\" data-footnote=\"4\">4<\/a> Shaped by gender, class, and age, these structures define and establish a hierarchy of moral notions regarding what Catholics do and do not consider to be a sin\u2014and these notions differ for men and women, as well as for those who hold certain positions of authority in society.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We invite you to watch and listen to the interview with Fernando Gonz\u00e1lez in the multimedia section of <em>Encartes<\/em>, and we hope to publish Enrique Marroqu\u00edn\u2019s essay \u201cConfessions in Morelia\u201d soon.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Bibliography<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"bibliography\" data-no-auto-translation=\"\">Bhabha, Homi (2002). <em> El lugar de la cultura.<\/em> Buenos Aires: Manantial.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"bibliography\" data-no-auto-translation=\"\">Bourdieu, Pierre (1990). <em>Sociolog\u00eda de la cultura.<\/em> M\u00e9xico: Grijalbo\/Conaculta<span class=\"small-caps\">.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"bibliography\" data-no-auto-translation=\"\">Gonz\u00e1lez, Fernando M. (1996).<em> Una historia sencilla<\/em>:&nbsp;<em>la muerte accidental&nbsp;de un cardenal. <\/em>M\u00e9xico: <span class=\"small-caps\">unam<\/span>\/Plaza y Vald\u00e9s.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"bibliography\" data-no-auto-translation=\"\">\u2014 (2001). <em>De matar y morir por Cristo Rey<\/em>. M\u00e9xico: <span class=\"small-caps\">unam<\/span>\/Plaza y Vald\u00e9s.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"bibliography\" data-no-auto-translation=\"\">\u2014 (2006). <em>Marcial Maciel. Los legionarios de Cristo: testimonios y documentos&nbsp;in\u00e9ditos.<\/em> M\u00e9xico: Tusquets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"bibliography\" data-no-auto-translation=\"\">\u2014 (2011).<em> Crisis&nbsp;de fe. Psicoan\u00e1lisis en el Monasterio de Santa Mar\u00eda de la Resurrecci\u00f3n 1961-1968. <\/em>Ciudad de M\u00e9xico: Tusquets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"bibliography\" data-no-auto-translation=\"\">\u2014 (2009). <em>La Iglesia del silencio: de m\u00e1rtires a pederastas<\/em>. M\u00e9xico: Tusquets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"bibliography\" data-no-auto-translation=\"\">\u2014 (2023).<em> Cuando un futuro se disuelve: de identidades trastocadas y radicalizaciones no previstas<\/em>. Ciudad de M\u00e9xico: <span class=\"small-caps\">iis-unam<\/span>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"abstract\"><em>Ren\u00e9e de la Torre Castellanos<\/em> She holds a Ph.D. in Social Anthropology from the Center for Research and Advanced Studies in Social Anthropology (<span class=\"small-caps\">ciesas<\/span>) and the University of Guadalajara. Member of the <span class=\"small-caps\">snii<\/span> level <span class=\"small-caps\">iii<\/span> and the National Academy of Sciences. Research professor at the <span class=\"small-caps\">ciesas<\/span> Occidente. Co-founder of the Network of Researchers on the Religious Phenomenon in Mexico (<span class=\"small-caps\">rifrem<\/span>). During his research career he has dedicated himself to the study of religious diversity in Mexico; to the study of new religious movements; to the emergence of alternative spiritualities such as the <em>new age<\/em> and \"Neomexicanidad\"; more recently, he has researched the dynamics of the transnationalization of Aztec ritual dances and popular religiosity. He has held more than a dozen ethnographic photography exhibitions. Among his most recent publications is the book <em>Latin American Variations on New Age<\/em>. M\u00e9xico:<span class=\"small-caps\"> ciesas<\/span>, 2013; published in English <em>New Age in Latin America. Popular Variations and Ethnicity Appropriations.<\/em>, 2016. Author of \u201cUltra-Baroque Catholicism: Multiplied Images and Decentered Religious Symbols,\u201d, <em>Social Compass<\/em> (2016); co-author of the following articles: \u201cRoutes and Postcolonial Meanings of Religious Transnationalization,\u201d, <em>Tiers Monde<\/em> (2016); \"Religious Studies in Latin America, <em>Annual Review of Sociology<\/em> (2016); \"The temazcal: a pre-Hispanic ritual transculturalized by alternative spiritual networks\", <em>Social Sciences and Religion<\/em> (2016) and \"Religion and Rescaling: How Santo Toribio Put Santa Ana on the Global Religious Map.\" <em>Current Sociology<\/em> (2016). https:\/\/orcid.org\/0000-0003-3914-4805<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>An interview by Ren\u00e9e de la Torre with psychoanalyst Fernando M. Gonz\u00e1lez about an unpublished article\u2014rejected on ethical grounds\u2014that compared the Catholic confession to psychoanalytic therapy. The conversation explores the tensions between religion and academia and cultural narratives of sin.<\/p>","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":40708,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[12],"tags":[],"coauthors":[551],"class_list":["post-40693","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-12","personas-gonzalez-gonzalez-fernando-manuel","personas-torre-castellanos-renee-de-la","numeros-1554"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v22.2 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Desde el div\u00e1n al confesionario: entrevista con Fernando M. Gonz\u00e1lez &#8211; Encartes<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Entrevista con Fernando M. 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